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 Post subject: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Posts: 7
Location: Philippines
Hi to all, thanks for the welcome!

I would like to share about the Philippine long tail fowl breed development project that was just initiated this March.
It was inspired by the Sarimanok, a legendary bird of the Maranao people of the Philippines.

Quote:
From the book: Art: Perception & Appreciation by Ortiz, Erastain, Guillermo, Montano, Pilar, 1976

The Maranaws have an animal form called the sarimanok as their proudest prestige symbol... like a rooster whose long tail…

http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=T9U ... il&f=false



Quote:
From the book: Ethnicity in Asia by Collin Mackerras, 2003

... Sarimanok, a bird with a long tail, generally represented in wood and brass with a fish in its beak, has become a national as well as a Maranao icon. ...

http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=RKP ... il&f=false


Photos of brass Sarimanok at:

http://www.reflectionsofasia.com/_borde ... ht%20a.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_BnsylnzvZCw/SDogt ... G_3650.jpg

http://buyantiquesandarts.weebly.com/up ... pg?7929074


Quote:
The Sarimanok is a very ubiquitous symbol in M’ranao art… One legend tells about the daughter of the Sultan of Lanao, whose name was Sari…
To everyone’s amazement, a cock with bright, glowing feathers flew into the middle of the feast and transformed into a very handsome prince.
The prince stated that he had been watching Sari for quite a long time since her birth, and that…read full story


Sarimanok is the combination of two words, Sari + manok. Sari is the name of the princess and manok- a Filipino word
which means chicken, which, in the legend is a rooster, the prince.

Proposed Sarimanok Standard

Image
http://www.photobucket.com/
Image
The above photo-drawing is a derivative work from the Gold (s+/s+) Black Breasted Red Phoenix found at
http://poulacapplepoultry.com/blog/bree ... ification/ Thanks Stasia for allowing me to use the photo.

Three breeds will be used to develop the Sarimanok,

Phoenix for the long tail
Bantam Rosecomb for the large rounded earlobes
Bantam Modern Game for the long legs

The project will be quite long and involve a lot of work. I am doing the project with other breeders. As required in the
Canadian Pedigree Act, the project must involve breeders nationwide.

Some of you might be wondering why the Canadian Pedigree Act? Searching the internet for the registration
requirements for an evolving animal breed and eventual distinct breed status, i found the Canadian Pedigree Act.

Any help/advise/tips on how to go about the project will be greatly appeaciated. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Location: northern Indiana, USA
I would breed for this in a few steps if you have the space to raise several birds.

1) breed the bantam rosecomb to the phoenix and select for birds with the large lobes.

2) breed the modern game to the phoenix and select for birds with longer legs

3) breed together the offspring with the desired traits and best feathering from the breedings above

Having Phoenix on both sides of the family line should pool the feathering traits nicely. Also, I would use a female phoenix in these breedings. Try to find a female from a line that produces well feathered males. The hens pass along the feathering so nicely in my experience.

I have one question though. What color are you wanting the legs to be? I as because your illustrations appear to have almost pearl legs and the three breeds you've mentioned have mostly slate colored legs from the birds I've seen.


David

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Philippines
Image
The Bagobo Clipart ETC is from http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/20900/20986/bagobo_20986.htm and is
copyright @ 2009 Florida Center for Instructional Technology at the University of South Florida.
Clipart items may be used in any non-commercial, educational project (report,
presentation, display, website, etc.) without special permission. See License

Other images of Bagobos wearing large round ear ornaments:

Gerhard Sisters' 1904 photograph of a Bagobo Chief

2009 photograph of a Bagobo Chief

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Location: northern Indiana, USA
I find the likeness of the large earrings to the earlobes and long hair to the long feathers in these images very similar. This proposed new breed could possibly be a wonderful tribute to the indigenous people and their culture. I would like to know the response from poultry enthusiasts who have ancestry from this culture. They may be quite honored.


David

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Posts: 7
Location: Philippines
IndianaGardener wrote:
I would breed for this in a few steps if you have the space to raise several birds.

1) breed the bantam rosecomb to the phoenix and select for birds with the large lobes.

2) breed the modern game to the phoenix and select for birds with longer legs

3) breed together the offspring with the desired traits and best feathering from the breedings above

Having Phoenix on both sides of the family line should pool the feathering traits nicely. Also, I would use a female phoenix in these breedings. Try to find a female from a line that produces well feathered males. The hens pass along the feathering so nicely in my experience.

I have one question though. What color are you wanting the legs to be? I as because your illustrations appear to have almost pearl legs and the three breeds you've mentioned have mostly slate colored legs from the birds I've seen.

David


Hi David,

The crosses you mentioned have been set up. Actually, two white Phoenix hens paired with a Black Rosecomb just finished their incubation period a few days ago.
1 white hen incubated 9 eggs but nothing hatched. The other hen, incubated 7 eggs but only 1 hatched. The Bantam Black Rosecomb cock might have been too
young and also i read that Rosecombs are not as fertile as other comb types. And also, the hens might not know how to properly incubate the eggs yet as
it is their first time to lay and incubate... Any idea what the real problem/s is/are?

The Black Rosecomb
Image http://www.photobucket.com/

One of the white Phoenix hens
Image

A silver Phoenix hen is now paired with this Bantam Modern Game
Image
Yes the Sarimanok will have pearl legs. This particular MGB was chosen because of its pearl leg color.

I've read that the long tail, long saddle and long sickle feather traits are dominant over the normal/wild type feathering.
The MGB though has short feathering; would the F1 (MGB X Phoenix) express the dominant long feather trait?

Thanks,
Ken

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Location: northern Indiana, USA
If possible, I would try the rosecomb breeding again when the rooster is older and set the eggs under a more experienced hen for incubation. The probably could be either of the things you mentioned. It's hard to say. Though I myself have experienced such poor hatches by young roosters from hens that have been good mothers by other older roosters.

The long feathering isn't so much dominant as it is co-dominant or incomplete dominant. Short game feather modifiers usually result in only the top two sickles of F1s being longer. The way to increase length is by pooling the genetics for the long feathering. This is why I recommend using phoenix on both sides of the family and then breeding the offspring from the two lines together.


David

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:15 am 
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This would be an interesting breed. You've done a lot of pre-work in your idea and what breeds are usefull to get there. It's great to see the resemblance or connection to the indiginous people, gives it a rich historie right away. Good luck and keep us informed on your progress :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Yep the black rose comb will be good for tail shape and big white lobes..I would start there first again... That should be a fairly easy project... Just make sure phoenix is on both sides though...You have all the correct birds to blend to make them... Good luck....TM

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:19 pm 
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It will take you about three generations to start seeing the long feathering again. The first two generations will feather with normal length tails and saddles. You'll be able to get just the body shape you want from the MGB and Phoenix, I've done that cross before and I can see how that body type could have been made. Very cool looking project, and I love the connection to the culture.

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Philippines
IndianaGardener wrote:
I find the likeness of the large earrings to the earlobes and long hair to the long feathers in these images very similar. This proposed new breed could possibly be a wonderful tribute to the indigenous people and their culture. I would like to know the response from poultry enthusiasts who have ancestry from this culture. They may be quite honored.

David


Hi David, thanks for pointing out the long hair long tail analogy; from a prince with long hair to a Sarimanok with long tail. So far i know,
there is no original Philippine chicken breed developed yet. Hopefully, the Sarimanok will bring honor not only to the indigenous people but to
all Filipinos as well. I thank Father God and the Lord Jesus for assigning me this project. It is a great opportunity to bring honor for my country.


mice75 wrote:
This would be an interesting breed. You've done a lot of pre-work in your idea and what breeds are usefull to get there. It's great to see the resemblance or connection to the indiginous people, gives it a rich historie right away. Good luck and keep us informed on your progress :wink:


faile wrote:
It will take you about three generations to start seeing the long feathering again. The first two generations will feather with normal length tails and saddles. You'll be able to get just the body shape you want from the MGB and Phoenix, I've done that cross before and I can see how that body type could have been made. Very cool looking project, and I love the connection to the culture.


Toni-Marie wrote:
Yep the black rose comb will be good for tail shape and big white lobes..I would start there first again... That should be a fairly easy project... Just make sure phoenix is on both sides though...You have all the correct birds to blend to make them... Good luck....TM


Hi Wanda and faile, glad you find the proposed breed interesting and cool. When the project was first planned, it wasn't the Sarimanok yet.
It was my sister, Gaylene, who suggested the name ... the suggestion made me do some research. Eventually, the connections between the traits of the different chicken breeds and the indigenous people and their culture/art just got revealed giving rise to the proposed Sarimanok - Philippine Long Tail Fowl.

Phoenix long tail = Sarimanok long tail
Rosecomb large rounded earlobes = Bagobo large round earrings = Sarimanok large rounded earlobes
Rosecomb upright tail = brass Sarimanok upright tail. As pointed out by Toni, the Rosecomb also has the good tail form for the Sarimanok.
Modern Game long legs = brass Sarimanok long legs
Bagobo long hair = Sarimanok long tail courtesy of David.

Yes, all the three breeds of fowl to blend and make the Sarimanok are here. They are there in other countries as well.
And maybe some breeders out there might be interested in developing their own line of the proposed Sarimanok breed?

Thanks, will update when there are developments.

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:04 pm 
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I have always been interested by breeding projects. I am curious if you have given any thoughts to a standard size? Perhaps Minorca (in place of the rosecomb), pheonix, modern game?


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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Location: St. Matthews , South Carolina
A Worthy project. Also the Pinoy Angels are lovely ! Were they developed in the Philippines ? I haven't kept tropical fish in years but the Scalares are one of my favorites . They remind me of mother hens, when caring for their young. Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Location: Philippines
mattcoondawg wrote:
I have always been interested by breeding projects. I am curious if you have given any thoughts to a standard size? Perhaps Minorca (in place of the rosecomb), pheonix, modern game?


Hi Matt, the Minorca has been considered as one of the breeds to use for the large earlobes but it is not available (none for sale, don't know anyone
who has it) here in the Philippines. The Rosecomb though is preferable, imo, for its tail form, wings held low and with arched neck, head held back, chest out.

There will be both "regular" and bantam sized Sarimanoks. However the standard size weights/heights have not been decided yet; it will be discussed
by the group. Size will be determined more by height, based on the posture illustrated in the proposed standard, from the ground to the tip of the comb.

May I ask members here what they think the ideal height for the bantam and regular Sarimanok would be, 30cm 1 foot for the bantam, 50cm 20 inches for the regular?

oasishillfarm wrote:
A Worthy project. Also the Pinoy Angels are lovely ! Were they developed in the Philippines ? I haven't kept tropical fish in years but the Scalares are one of my favorites . They remind me of mother hens, when caring for their young. Bill


Thanks Bill, yes the Pinoy variants were developed in the Philippines. The Pinoy variants can express the most blue color.
Blue is the latest color mutation (single gene) identified. Yes angelfish are protective of their young just like a mother hen but both parents guard their fry. Father God is also protective like a mother hen Matthew 23:37

I have a silver Phoenix hen that does not incubate properly. At night she sits on her eggs but during the day she is out of the nest most of the time.
It's her 1st time to incubate, will she eventually incubate properly? Egg turning is part of incubation, can this behavior be lost just like broody
behavior is lost in some breeds? Could there be hens that go broody but don't turn their eggs?

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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:41 am 
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Location: north carolina
You may not get any eggs to hatch if she is letting them get too cold. I had a hen take 3 years before she successfully hatched out chicks, and some others that can not be trusted once the chicks hatch. Some are good mothers and some are definitely not. I have several others that will take any thing you give them. I just have to make sure the new chicks are mobile enough, usually 2 to 4 days old, and I have had a spread of 3 to 4 weeks in age. As far as turning the eggs 3 times a day is fine. I hatch in an insulted box with a light bulb on a dimmer switch in my closet, and usually have a 95% to 100% hatch rate. Your hen will probably get better with age. Gayla


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 Post subject: Re: Philippine Long Tail Fowl - Sarimanok
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:27 am 
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Posts: 55
Very inspiring and interesting project.
I live in Thailand and had always wanted to rest any kind of long tail fowl but we do not have any long tail breed here.
I had wanted to bring some long tail breed in to the country but never success so I give up.
In Thailand we are famous in fighting rooster. With the kind advise from Toni Marie, I then starting to encourage friends that rest this original Thai breed toward longer tail and perhaps one day we will come up with "Siamese Long tail Fowl" which will be different than others.
I envy you in Philippines that you have the phoenix breed that will make your dream shorter. For us we have to start with what ever we have in the country. I am very interesting to study your project as guideline for Siamese Long tail. Though your Sarimanok look is different than what we have in our mind about our long tail but for both country to have two new wonderful long tail breed is great idea.
Siamese Long tail look will be toward the look of Peacock. The head will be small and slim with long neck. The tail long but rigid held parallel to the ground.
Here is the picture of one. It is only 2 years since we start the project but yet a looooong way to go.


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