Onagadori - Long Tail Fowl and Long Crowing Fowl Discussion Forums

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 Post subject: Onagadori for sale - ebay and elsewhere
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Onagadori Eggs for Sale
Educate yourself before buying


This is regarding so-called Onagadori, Onagadori Phoenix, American Onagadori, proto-Onagadori, proto-Phoenix (sometimes applied to a cross of a "proto-Onagadori" and a Phoenix) and every other ill-conceived term out there regarding the long-tailed fowl in the US. Ads with those catch phrases have been around for yrs, but seem to be on the rise as of late. I am posting this here not because of the members, who already know this, but I have realized this is a popular tag line in google's search engine and I need a place to host this. I am hoping would-be "Onagadori" buyers find their way to this thread in their searching.

There has been a recent string of "Onagadori Phoenix" eggs for sale on ebay and elsewhere. One seller in particular has been using photos of pure (imported from Japan) Onagadori in Germany to sell eggs from the US. So if you find an auction or web page selling "Onagadori" do some image googling and find out where that image really comes from. Chances are, if it looks like a real Onagadori, the image used is stolen intellectual property in violation of copyright laws even if the photo is not watermarked.

One seller in CA requested photos from a forum member here. The seller conveniently forgot to tell the photographer that they wanted the photos to use in sales. The seller then placed their own watermark on the photos and now uses these photos to represent their own bantam Phoenix. The birds in these photos are clearly large-fowl and located in a northern climate, New Jersey, not California, as apparent by the ice on the ground. The photos are by chrisf and he took the photos at Cy Hyde's facility in New Jersey circa Dec. 15th, 2007. The photos are shown below with the rightful watermark.

Beautiful Phoenix with very nice tails. The Hyde line large-fowl are some of the best long-tail fowl in the US, but not quite Onagadori.
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The first issue I would like to confront is that these are two distinct breeds. Either a bird is an Onagadori or it is a Phoenix. It can not be both!

Someone saying "Onagadori Phoenix" is as absurd and false as someone saying they have "Buff Orpington Silkies" or "Polish Cochins". The two breeds do not belong or fit together.

Onagadori must have a 12 Ft tail consisting of at least ten ribbon-like feathers and have at least 4 Ft saddles.
Phoenix have 2 Ft to 5 Ft tails made up of wide, rigid feathers and 12 in to 18 in saddles.
Birds that have a mix of these traits are neither breed; mutts, mixes, crosses, and blends to put it simply. My own birds are results of recent crosses and I freely admit that. There is nothing wrong with crosses. They simply are not a set breed until they produce offspring with fairly consistent traits.

As a side note to this, the Onagadori is a Japanese breed and the Phoenix is a European breed. The Phoenix was developed in Europe from only a small amount of Japanese blood. The majority of the Phoenix's genetic make up is Leghorn and Modern Game. The latter is where the blue/slate standard leg color comes from. There are not any and never have been any Japanese Phoenix. There are no blue/slate legged Japanese long-tails.

While there are no known Onagadori in the US, we are fortunate enough to have real Phoenix. The majority of long-tails available in the US are either pure Phoenix or crosses with various other breeds.

Second, as stated above, there are no known true Onagadori in the US. There is not and never has been any evidence that proves otherwise. According to the Japanese standard, this is the bare minimum feather growth that a rooster must produce to be classified as an Onagadori: it must have at least three, preferably four, consecutive years of feather growth in the tail. Yearly feather growth must be in the range of 3 Ft. This puts the tail at near 12 Ft in length. In addition to that, the bird must also have saddle feathers between 1/3 and 1/2 the length of the tail. That would be saddles 4 Ft - 6 Ft in length.

Not only must it possess the length, it must also have fullness. An Onagadori must have at least ten feathers of extravagant length in the tail that have been non-molting for three to four years.

In short, for a bird to qualify as an Onagadori it must have a tail in the range of 12 Ft made up of at least ten feathers and also have 4Ft - 6 Ft saddles.

If someone claiming to be selling "Onagadori" can not provide proof of their line producing all of these traits, their line is not Onagadori.

Third, I would like to address the term "American Onagadori". This started showing up online after my co-author and I published our book on long-tail fowl. In it I gave a proposed American standard for Onagadori to help people in selecting for the necessary traits. This was titled, "American Onagadori Standard." It is an American standard, not an American breed and it was never intended to imply there are American Onagadori. The people who have perpetuated this are confused by adjectives. Not only that, but the birds they call "American Onagadori" do not even fit the breeding standard they cite.

The Onagadori is a Japanese breed and always will be. Just as we have Chabo here in the US and still call them "Japanese Bantams", so would the Onagadori be a Japanese breed even if bred on American soil because Japan is its country of origin.

Fourth, something that I still see a lot is people selling "proto-Onagadori". There are no living proto-Onagadori. They were in the past, gave rise to something better than themselves (Onagadori), did their job, and are gone. The term "proto" itself is a past tense prefix and can only be applied to objects of the past.

So, to would-be buyers of "Onagadori", "Onagadori Phoenix", "American Onagadori", and "proto-Onagadori", there are not any known Onagadori in the US! Save your money!


David Rogers
co-author of Long Tailed Fowl, long-tail fowl breeder, and hobbyist researcher

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Last edited by IndianaGardener on Fri May 22, 2009 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: ebay birds
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Those people are just dirty rats!....TMA

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:23 pm 
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I did not think there was any in the US! Them people are only in it for the $ not the fun of having long tail fowl!!!

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Last edited by Chuck on Wed May 20, 2009 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm 
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good post david.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:10 am 
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Very useful post. I don't think its ever been written so succinctly. Thanks. One correction I would make however, is that Onagadori is a stage or developmental phase -the result of painstaking selective breeding of heirloom lineages of different lines. Whereas the Phoenix is of partially European extraction, we can't forget that all chickens originate from the same melting pot in Southern/Southeast Asia. The people selling Onagadori are obviously out to make a buck at the expense of the actual discipline and the stewards of heirloom lineages. Your book is very educational and is obviously attracting many new enthusiasts into the fold.
Perhaps now is the time to begin discussing actual molecular genetics and different theories of selective breeding so that your readers might better understand how the astonishing Onagadori phase is reached. It would be theoretically possible to select breed a line of Phoenix towards some mirror phenotype of the Onagadori if similar backcrossing was utilized. It would take twenty or more years, but it is theoretically possible.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:52 am 
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I probably should ahve stated something more along the lines of, There are now known long-tails in the US that are up to standards with true Onagadori.

There were some here, but not bred here. And they did lend their genetics to our birds. My school of thought on the matter is that birds with half of the traits, or half expression thereof, are not a breed, but rather resegregated geneotypes that have yet to produce the desired results to a maximum expression of what could be considered Onagadori.


David

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:59 am 
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Very well put. So much for the myopia hypothesis.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:15 pm 
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If you're sincere, thank you. Though we don't agree on everything, maybe neither of us is quite as bad as the other thinks?


David

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:28 pm 
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IndianaGardener wrote:
If you're sincere, thank you. Though we don't agree on everything, maybe neither of us is quite as bad as the other thinks?


David


I am always sincere and concur with this most recent assessment entirely.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Thank you, but I would still appreciate it if you could give some credit to the photographers who's intellectual property you use in your posts. Ok? I think that is our biggest dividing point at the moment.


David

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:13 pm 
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Some of these photos are my own -either I took them or interns collected or took them for our upcoming encyclopedia in the works now since 1990.
For full credits -see Encyclopedia Gallinacea volume 12 Junglefowl,Bamboo Partridges, Francolins and Rock Partridges.
It won't be published until November and frankly I don't have the names of all the photographers of photos used in the folio. People send them to me and I file them in the folders for each chapter of the encyclopedia. I'll ask the publishers if they can send me a list of photographers we've paid for photos for publishing though not every photograph sent is used- - I know that most Indonesian photos are taken by Prof. Solimandikarta or Kara Sun. I lifted the Ayam Cemani from Feathersite.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:28 am 
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If you paid for them they're yours. When I sell a photo I don't expect anyone to list my name. Once I sign over non-exclusive rights in perpetuity, that's the end of my credits. You won't see my name in the Park's Seed catalog. LOL


David

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Are the Japanese that strict in keeping the breed intact within their country that they haven't allowed any of it to be exported into the US?...or maybe I should have simply asked why there are no true to type Onagadoris in the US?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:49 pm 
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These heirloom lineages are considered cultural monuments. The Japanese had no domestic animals, save for fowl until fairly recently. The lineages maintained by temples, feudal lords and royal families are guarded as not only heritage breeds but invaluable heirlooms passed down from steward to steward for as long as anyone can remember. Hybrids and outcrosses, for example, the progenitors of the Yokohama and Phoenix fowl have been shared with westerners and since the sixties there has been a trend towards creating composites of ancient lines (within single breeds). These composite lineages have also been exported from time to time.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:40 pm 
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The Onagadori was designated a Natural Monument in 1923 and obtained Special Natural Monument status in 1952. It is protected by law and it's illegal to allow birds or eggs out of Japan except by special exception. One exception was a 1940s World's Fair and another was the 1970 National Geographic study. There were some illegally smuggled into Germany in the early 1990s.

All of the early Onagadori that arrived to the US were out-crossed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but they were not fully selected back to type afterwards. A bird with only a half expression (at best) of one ancestor's traits, is not the same breed as said ancestor. In fact, it's not a breed at all. It's a partially resegregated genotype that produces offspring having widely variable and inconsistent phenotype.


David

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