Onagadori - Long Tail Fowl and Long Crowing Fowl Discussion Forums

A few years ago I encountered this online genetics map for chicken breeds and colors and I cant find it anymore. But any ways can anyone tell me what chicken breed aside for the silky has recessive white?

This could be useful in transferring unique color patterns from JF species to domestic chickens

Toni-Marie is a color genius. She told me about things she has encountered with this color over the years of breeding that she has done with various breeds.

There isn't one recessive white. There are about 3 different kinds. The rec. white in American breeds differs from that found in Asian breeds. If you breed parents with two different kinds together, you get offspring with the genetic color of the parents instead of white because the offspring must have two copies of one of the kinds of white, not one copy of each.

Chabo and Onagadori have the same kind of rec. white, but it differs from some of the rec. white breeds found here.

The other kind is possibly either found in European or Mediterranean breeds.... I don't remember which.

It's thought that the rec. white found in most Japanese breeds is thought to be a mutation from the green JF since these white birds are usually silver duckwing masked by white and silver DW is thought to be from the green JF.

It's possible that the other forms of rec. white come from other species of JF. I don't know.

I have gotten some odd colors playing with rec. white. I've gotten birds with mahogany in the breasts, very much a JF trait. Also I got an odd color that Toni-Marie believes is a recessive erminette. I got two pullets of that color by breeding together a gold DW roo and a silver DW hen who both carry rec. white.
Bye for now,


David

I have two of the types of recessive white in my longtails. The first came from my bantam 'Phoenix' line that was really much more Onagadori-like in everything except the leg colour. That type of recessive white would also turn the legs white ALWAYS no matter what I did to it. The second recessive white I have came from large fowl Phoenix and allows normal leg colours to be expressed like slate and yellow and willow.

When the two types of recessive white were crossed together, I got normal duckwing coloured birds and also duckwing coloured birds that looked like they were blue duckwings, but they were not a true blue. I was told that this was a false blue that resulted from some of the genetics of the Red Shouldered Yokohama. When the F1's were crossed together, I was able to segregate out the separate types of recessive white again, and could see that the bantam 'Phoenix' recessive white still had white legs while the other white still had coloured legs. It's been a really fascinating project working with these two types of white.

Wow faile amazing results

Its really fascinating that such a bird could cover such genetic diversity in a mere 2,000 years of domestication.

I have noticed that if I crossed a recessive white with golden duckwings I get columbian colored birds, is this similar or a different kind of white?

An additional question about recessive whites

because I do encounter two whites here with our local fowl, one is white legged the other yellow. Is the white legged more likely the recessive?

Both could be different forms of recessive white. Or they could be dominant white (not likely). Ask the breeders if they get white offspring when breeding the bird to a mate that doesn't carry white. If they don't, then they are recessive.
Bye for now,


David

Hello

Is it true that if you breed a bbred to a recessive white that it will produce a red pyle?

Henk

Red pyle comes from dominant white. From what I understand about the original work on that colour, it was dominant white bred to a red duckwing. Dominant white covers up the black but won't touch the red. This is why you still have red hackle and saddle on males and the salmon breast on the hens. It's also why you can cross back to red duckwing without doing too much harm to the pyle colour, and in fact you should do this periodically to keep the red strong. Recessive white will cover up EVERYTHING except for a few stray coloured feathers now and then. Both forms of white need other genes to make them truly a clean silver white. White in chickens is a surprisingly complex thing!

I would guess that you're seeing columbian birds from your cross because that's the colour the recessive white is hiding. When you cross a recessive white onto a coloured bird, you get coloured birds in the F1. Columbian pattern is made on the eWh allele, which is dominant to the e+ allele that the duckwing colours are made on. That is more than likely the reason you're seeing columbian patterned birds from your cross. It's not a different kind of white at all, it's just uncovering what's hidden by the recessive white genes.

Neilcdg,
Did the chart look anything like this?
http://www.ringneckdove.com/Wilmer's%20 ... LKYCHI.htm

Aside from what has already been covered, I wanted to point out that dominant white and recessive white, in all their forms, do not do anything more than cover up what's already there. Some super rare and wonderful color/pattern genes have been hidden for ages in some of the older white lines of birds but until you cross them to colored fowl those secrets will remain hidden. Case in point, there was a Swedish group working on the Smoky gene (I^S), an allele at the dominant white locus that is incompletely dominant to (I) dominant white and (I^D) dun yet partially recessive to (i+). Heterozygous I^S//i+ chicks have diluted down yet normal eild type coloration when fully grown. The smoky gene put color back in to dominant white and dun birds. So I^S//I^D and I^S//I birds feathered out with more color than I^D//i+, I^D//I^D, I^D//I or I//i+, I//I birds. Homozygous I^S//I^S birds were a smoky blue color and according to Dr. Okimoto, could possibly produce a better blue as they could be used as a true breeding population unlike the "blue gene". I did everything legal to obtain birds from the last known stocks being kept at a university but even a last ditch effort produced an empty pot. The adult birds were disease negative, had no immune system "at all" and had never been exposed to anything that wasn't sterile. Even on cage wire they got sick and died before they could be crossed out to another breed. Until someone lucks on to a flock of whites that has the gene, only Whiting has the gene but those ones can't be bought at any price.

Basically, if you can get ahold of a line of university whites or find some old line of white birds that have been pigeon holed away for the last 50 years, you might have a chance at finding something rare hidden in them. Otherwise most white lines these days only produce genes like, mottled, recessive white (your guess as to which form), dominant whites, sexlinked barring, sexlinked barred dilute (california grays), dun, blue, columbian and a few odd ball genes. Pretty much anything that can possibly cover up colors is thrown at the wall and that's what you can expect to get back out of them. If you can find somebody that has ADOL Line 0 white leghorns, you've got a potential gold mine locked up in those guys but you'll have to get past go and that means #1 procuring them and #2 producing an F1 generation before they pass out from exposure to "life".

I hope I didn't ramble to much, it's been a long day, lol.

Dan

I almost forgot,
To add to Faile's list... Black laced red + dominant white is what makes White Laced Red Cornish. Some lines of WLR Cornish used the blue gene to help clean up any black flecking that was missed by the incompletely dominant white, producing a cleaner bird. Essentially though, the dominant white gene removes the black but doesn't affect red much.

Dan